Shorr Solutions: The Podcast: Ep. 62 – When & How to Fire an Employee – Shorr Solutions

 

Sometimes you must have that tough conversation to terminate an employee that is just not working in the favor of your aesthetic practice. However, when do you fire an employee? Is there a reason why their work is not always in the best interest of the company? That’s why training your team members for success is imperative and needs to happen on day one.

As consultants helping aesthetic medical practices across the country, we see people leaving at an extremely rapid rate, but we are here to offer you some advice if you have that employee that is not leaving, and frankly, they should.

In this episode of Shorr Solutions: The Podcast, “When to Fire an Employee”, hosts and practice management experts, Jay Shorr and Mara Shorr, describe how to lovingly escort or fire an employee that is not working as a good team member, as well as the legality of it all.

Ready to increase your efficiency, increase your revenue and decrease your costs? Schedule your free 30-min consult with our experts, Jay Shorr and Mara Shorr, here!

Start acquiring more patients and boost your revenue! Sign up for our Conversion Cascade online course to attract more patients, convert calls to consults, convert consults to treatment and keep patients coming back for more. Get started here! Use code PODCAST to save 20% OFF!

Free Workbook: “How to Build & Maintain Your Dream Cosmetic Practice”. Download now here!

 

Welcome to Shorr Solutions: The Podcast. I am one of the hosts, Mara Shorr. I am a partner in the medical practice management company. Yes. Shorr Solutions. Who’s the other host, you may ask? Easy answer? That would be my father, our founding partner Jay Shorr. Together, we have an amazing team and clients across the coast.
Listen, as we chat, converse, strategize and commiserate over life and the aesthetic medical industry. It’s time for you to listen, learn and be inspired as we help you kickstart your practice because who doesn’t want a little more help? Welcome to Shorr Solutions: The Podcast.
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Shorr Solutions: The

Podcast. I am one of your co-hosts Mara Shorr, and with me, we have the grand Poobah today, our founding partner, and more importantly, as we always say, most importantly, my dad, Jay Shorr. Jay is our founding partner and together we make up Shorr Solutions partnership, but we couldn’t of course do it without our amazing team.
So we are going to talk today about a topic that happens really when you may not have the most amazing team . Now, as you know, We work with medical practices and the static cosmetic community all across the country and during the great resignation. You’ve heard us talk about this time and time again. Jay’s talked about this on webinars and live in person in conferences. So have I in podcast episodes. You’ve heard it. So people are leaving at a pretty rapid rate, but we’re going to talk today about what happens if

that employee isn’t leaving and maybe frankly they should. So we’re going to talk today about when is it time to lovingly escorts that team member out of your practice? Because they, maybe aren’t a team member. So in other words, when is it time to fire an employee?
So, Jay, I conducted that long-winded intro, but do you want to go ahead and say hello? And we can kick this podcast episode off?
Jay: Good morning. Good afternoon. Wherever you are in this part of the world, I’d like to chim in and just make one comment to our title. We don’t fire employees. They actually fire themselves. And that’s a very important thing to note because in a very wonderful, great world situation, there’s never a need to fire an

employee unless you have to terminate their employee because of a layoff. For low as we had gone through before, but I don’t consider that firing.
I know a lot of people say I got fired. Well, you really didn’t get fired. And I guess that term, I don’t like the word fired because it always has a negative connotation, even though it may have been an involuntary termination on the employee’s side. All right. Or a voluntary resignation on the employee ease side. It’s probably all the things I’ve had to do as a senior manager or director or a company practice owner. It is probably the least favorite thing that I have to do or enjoy doing. Fortunately, I’ve never, you know, had to worry about that here at Shorr

Solutions. But the whole point of this is that we hire people kind of like a marriage.
You don’t go into a marriage with the thought of terminating that marriage in a good world situation. So let’s get after it. Let’s talk about the great steps of legality as a very important part, because there are many very unfriendly Commonwealth and state policies. And when I say unfriendly, I’m now talking about, on behalf of the employer, I’m not really getting at the employee type of a situation right now.
All right, because those people that are listening more over our employers.
Mara: So, and the whole goal, and I really want to make sure we’re using our time today to talk about what happens when there’s no work around. Right? But we would really be remiss, and Jay,

this is something you and I talk about all the time with both onstage offstage with our clients around the country, around the world, but when it comes to how to prevent letting an employee. Right? We always say, you and I always say that training must start from the very beginning. And I learned this phrase from you Jay, not learned this phrase, but learned the, the borderline obsession with this phrase that we both have, which is training has to be clear, concise, consistent. You can’t let up on training. Training needs to start from day one. And I’ve talked in other podcasts episodes about having policies and procedures in place. I’ve talked about making sure that this is all set. You have proper onboarding. If you haven’t listened already, go back and listen to some of those episodes, but really training is going to be your, your number one opportunity to prevent having to do this and really let somebody go in the

future. That’s one of the top reasons that we see is either there were resume red flags, you ignored, which is another podcast episode, go back and listen to that. So there were either resume red flags that you ignore during the hiring process, or they weren’t properly trained and onboarded properly. And that is really, I would say then the top reasons that somebody doesn’t work out and that they’re not performing.
Jay: You say with these three letter acronyms that we have our PPP that have to be CCC? Procedures and protocols that have to be clear, concise, and consistent. PPPCCC? I just, I just wanted to confirm that’s all.
Mara: Yes. We love acronyms around here. So we actually include in training, we include the acronyms for our new team members. So with that, yes, it’s always being clear, concise, consistent, and making sure that you’re having the one-on-one the employee review.

The powows so that it doesn’t get to this point.
Now, Jay, you talk often and one of my favorite analogies…
Jay: I thought you were going to stop right there when you say Jay, you talk often.
Mara: Oh, look, I come by it, honestly. Okay. It’s genetic. So if anyone says that, I talk, you know, if I talk often I talk too much. Like I get it from, you . So with that though, let’s talk about the deal breakers, right?
So what happens when there is no way around having to let that employee go? Because they aren’t a team member, they aren’t a teammate. What do you say are the deal breaks?
Jay: That’s a very easy one. I have. If you’re, if you’re asking about what are some of my zero tolerance policy that will terminate an employee? As you know, from the time you were born and raised and became my

business partner and everything, the three things I don’t tolerate.
Ethics, you know, you have to be, we don’t do anything unethical or illegal or immoral. That’s in my life. That’s in my business. How can we ever get a patient on the practitioner’s end? How can we ever get a patient to trust us? How can we ever get an employee to trust us if we’re not at the goal more moral or legal.
And I expect. No, I actually, I demand, but I expect because that is from the initial onboarding. Even when I do my fact finding of interview them, I have zero tolerance for any, misdirection of those three.
Secondly, theft. Theft is a zero tolerance policy to me. And don’t lie to me. Just tell me the truth. No differently than I ever asked a doctor to tell their

patient don’t lie to the patient. The best way to help to dissolve a malpractice suit is to be honest with your patient. So I expect the same thing of our employees with us, and I expect the same thing of us to our staff.
And drug and alcohol.
Mara: And this is, you know, this is something to address too, is that drug and alcohol. Let me put it this way. Not alcohol, because they’re, they’re really, they, there is no reason to be drinking during the workday, especially with providers, but there is no reason to be drinking during the workday. But, what needs to be established on a state by state level is the legality. When it comes to medical marijuana, when it comes to the legality of marijuana and what is, and is not allowed in the workplace and what that testing looks like, because just because something is legal in general, doesn’t mean that it should be utilized during the workplace when they are treating

patients.
Jay: That brings up a whole other podcast topic. And this is not about me sharing my approval, disapproval acknowledgement of legality – illegality. I think there’s a flaw in the system and because rules and regulations have changed, throughout the years, that means we also have to change some of our policies. All right. Let me give you just a clear example.
If I was an in charge of a drug program in my former career, and one of the problems, and I’m going to share with marijuana today, whether it’s the CBDs or the THCs is there is a limit of 50 nanograms. All right. And if you are over the 50 nanogram level, it used to be a hundred. If you’re over the 59 and gram level, you will fail. This was for marijuana or any of its derivatives. The problem I have with it is the whole

reason that we drug test is to see if it is active drugs in your system. However the half-life or the duration of how long a drug will stay in your system, barriers, drug by drug. So some of the heavier drugs that you stay away from for 48, 72 hours, four days, five days, we’ll be out of your system by the time that preemployment or post offer drug test is taken or a terminable offense in the workplace. However, if it’s a test that you’re going to give to an employee post offer, not necessarily preemployment, but post offer. If they have smoked or had edibles of any type of a marijuana derivative, the heavier you are the longer it stays in your fat cells, the thinner you are, the shorter time it will stay in your fat cells and you may not necessarily be under the influence because alcohol

fades away from your system very quickly, but the derivatives of marijuana do not. Therefore this isn’t about my personal opinion. This is about excluding people from the workforce in those states, Commonwealth, Massachusetts, and DC and state of Washington and Oregon and California. Any of those states where it is now become even recreation weed legal. That on a Friday night after work, you may have had recreational enjoyment. If that’s what you want to legally, it comes Monday or Tuesday, it’s in your system, but you have nowhere near been impaired. Yet the same thing with an employee if they test, and that is a terminable offense.
So we need to redirect and relook at those policies. Once again, I’m not here to condemn or condone. I just want to share the equality, legality and fairness for clear, concise, and

consistent measures.
Mara: Now, one thing that when we talk about, because I want us to talk about what happens leading up to the actual termination and actual conversation. So one of the, the questions that we come across a lot, and we work, like I say, we work with clients all across the country in this particular industry, and there is some drama that goes on. So what should somebody do? How should it be handled if a practice owner, a practice manager hears that an unhappy employee is going about chattering to other, other happy employees? Knowing that if the conversations like that continue, it will infect the rest of the team. Right? And the negativity will permeate, but also if they’re going around telling everybody, I hate

it here, this place, you know, is horrible. This place sucks. And they’re this and they’re that. And the owners are this and the managers that, and they’re, they’re just, you know, I, the patients drive me crazy and they’re just, they’re they’re negative.
Right. So if the management, knows that that’s going on. What how should this be nipped so that we’re able to kind of curb that, or do you fire right at that moment? How do you recommend handling that?
Jay: So not to gender bash. I know a pair of fraternal twins called Debbie and Donnie, their last names drama. All right? I say that because I don’t want to use a name that’s one gender or another. So it’s fraternal twins, Debbie and Donnie drama.
Mara: I would suggest a gender neutral name like Pat-
Jay: No, but it doesn’t go with deep or drama. So we called them “DD.”
Mara: And for those of you that don’t know the reason we can’t use the name Pat is because Jay’s wife slash my stepmother. She is Pat.

And by the way, if you haven’t met her, she has one of the most delightful women you’re ever going to meet.
Jay: Zero drama.
Mara: So it makes no sense. So we have Debbie and Donny Downer.
Jay: Okay. So the problem is this is metastatic. Infectious to the max in your workplace, because the fastest way to demoralize a good employee is for you to allow them to watch you tolerate the misbehavior of a bad employee
Mara: And Jay, I just want to make sure. And I want to add in just for everybody, either watching or listening to that, they’re aware. I know, you know where I’m coming from this, but this is if that employee that Debbie, Donnie, Debbie, or Donnie, hasn’t actually quit. They haven’t submitted a letter of resignation and they’re lingering within their two weeks. This is they haven’t given their two. They’re carrying on as if they’re fully employed normally with the practice, but they’re still

carrying on.
Jay: But there are many problems with this because you’ve got to be able to call that person in and without outing the person that you’re hearing it from, per se, you’ve got to be able to confront the actual drama. All right? Because it will continue. And if you get new people and allow these, these people , this person or people to continue, that’s the noise that the new employee or staff member are going to see, and it may not be tolerable because it will flow downhill. That I promise you. So that has to be nipped in the butt. And you got to nip it in the butt from the very beginning to allow somebody to know. Now I’m a former practice owner and I have to tell you that my staff policed it themselves because they knew that I wouldn’t tolerate it. I’m very

giving I’m more than happy. Always been out for the underdog. I want to find what is the underlying condition that is creating this negativity in the workplace?
Maybe just, maybe it’s me. All right. However, if it’s only a single member or two and the rest of my staff, I don’t have that with, then, I know it’s not me. But, we have clients, that it is everywhere. Every employee is stealing the same thing. And you know what I say to my client, there’s a common denominator here and maybe it’s you. So let’s work on fixing the problem or collectively let’s hear the employee out because their gripe might be the legitimate.
Mara: You know, what we often will we’ll do with our clients, is have them speak with us via, you know, and most of the time it’s via video chat. Sometimes if we’re in person on site, then we’ll sit down in a separate private

room and we’ll say, look, tell us, tell us what’s going on. And, and we want to hear this. And if, just like you said, Jay, if there’s this commonality where everybody says the same thing, everybody says that the management is negative and unforgiving and it , their expectations are realistic and , nobody’s getting a lunch break and everybody’s coming in tired and miserable. Well, let’s look at why that is.
So , that comes into: there are some points where before letting that person go, we, we look at what that looks like . Now, it we know, that this person, this is a one, one person issue, right? This is because this person is negative. There needs to be that conversation.
And what exactly is going on and looking at having them fill it, fill out a complaint form. What does that look like? Let’s talk this through and again, Filling out, not just the complaint form, but talking to that third party. So let’s, let’s say that at that

point, it’s, it’s gone on record, right? It’s gone in an employee file that this is something that is, concerning to all parties involved, but this isn’t going away.
Right. So we’re not, we’re not talking for the sake of this conversation about the issues where we all work together and kumbaya and fix it and policies, procedures, attitude, changes, fix everything. Cause that is one, one best case scenario. Right? But let’s for the sake of the topic for this particular video slash podcast, let’s say that that doesn’t happen because if it does, then we wouldn’t be able to go onto the next step of what we’re talking about.
Jay: Then you have got to nip it in the butt. Listen. Always always listen to the complaint. It may be very legitimate. However, even though it’s legitimate, it may not portray to our business. And if it doesn’t, you have to give the staff member options. These are the rules. These are

the policies. These are the protocols. You have two choices, you can follow them like everybody else is supposed to do. Or may I suggest that maybe you seek external employment outside of this facility because that isn’t going to work for you. Some people feel that if they’ve called in sick, because they were sick in excess of their allowable, sick or PTO days that it’s okay. Because they were sick.
Look many employees are selfish. They care about them, but so our employers, so we have to have a very light heart and a heavy heart at the same time. However, here’s the problem you can’t pick and choose which staff member. Oh, Mara. She’s my favorite employee. Well, by the way, by the way, Mara is my favorite employee, but that’s okay.
Because
Mara: I’m not an employee. That’s a trick question.
Jay: All right. Well,

Mara’s not my employee. That’s not how I meant it.
Mara: It’s okay Jay, you are my favorite employee too.
Jay: That’s okay. That’s okay. I always want to be your favorite employee, right. But Hey, look, as long as I’m on payroll, I’m an employee .
Mara: That’s true. That’s true. Where each other’s favorite employees.
Jay: So the bottom line to this comedy act here, the bottom line to it is that you’ve got to treat everybody equal, consistent, remember? Clear, concise, consistent, because in some states you can be called to task for discrimination. Well, you know, she’s my, she’s my favorite employee. And people ask me when I had to practice, who was my favorite employee and I had many favorite employees, everyone that went above and beyond what their job responsibilities were to make this a good, safe, profitable, and fun workplace, quote, unquote, for

all.
Mara: And I wanted to actually touch on something that, you know, in conjunction to what you’re saying, which is that you, you have brought up in and what you just said. As it relates to state law, and there are a number of laws that are different as it relates to HR, different from state to state. And I truly highly, highly encourage anybody, that’s listening, get to know what the laws are within your state because, eligibility for unemployment is different state to state . Termination, what’s determined. As far as within 90 days, does that not matter if they’ve, if they’ve been terminated within 90 days, does that 90 day period, not matter, according to your state, we look at all sorts of things and what is owed to that employee once they’re terminated. And it does differ state to state. I highly encourage you to consult with somebody that’s an HR legal expert within your state. So

not because you were brother’s best friend’s sister, is a tax attorney and, you know, three states over that. That’s not what I’m talking about. You really want somebody that is very, very specific.
So you’re able to go to them then with these questions and when you are ready, to let them go, there are several things that, that need to be considered.
Jay: What’s very important for terminable offenses is that it’s so noted in an employee handbook.
Mara: Yes, absolutely.
Jay: All right. This is a very important thing because don’t ever try to criticize a staff member for something they’re doing wrong or an infraction that they’ve committed, unless it has been so noted in the handbook. And I don’t believe in printing handbooks anymore. I believe in making them available online, in the cloud, that everyone has accessibility to it. And the reason for that

is we change different regulations within the practice handbook all the time. It’s a simple edit.
We do it in word document, we edit it, we save it in the PDF. The PDF stays in the cloud. The employee has constant access to it. And we also, anytime we make a change, we tell that to the employee, we’ll send that to them in an email or a PDF new protocol change, but it does stay in the employee handbook.
Now. What I always believed in outside of my zero tolerance policies and the zero tolerance policies are in the handbook. Drug and alcohol. Theft. All right? Or any type of patient abuse, employee abuse, foul language, things like that, are immediate zero terminable events.
Now, coming in late, calling in sick. These are offenses, which I call you’re going to get a verbal warning. Then you’re going to get a

written warning and then you’re going to cut a couple of days off and then you’re gone. All right now, there could be a six month, I’m a good boy, I’m a good girl, period. Where if you don’t commit anything in those things that goes back six months in that last one, will wipe off.
I’m going in corporate America here for a second. All right. Cause these are very big corporate America standards, which is where I spent most of my entire career. Prior to this. The other issue is do for one do for all. And I brought this up before and not because I love Mara she’s my favorite staff member or whatever, whatever you do for one, you better do for all because when it comes to the labor relations board, Or regulatory body in your state department of labor, you will be called to task. And if you can prove that you were clear, concise, and consistent. Hey, we’re coming back to these CCCs again, you’ll never be called for discrimination, which brings in a comment that

I urge each and every one of you to have EPLI employment liability insurance with your liability carrier.
Mara: We love acronyms.
Jay: Well, I didn’t make it up, but yes. All right. The EPLI for those of you who don’t know is that when an employee wants to Sue you for unfair labor practices, you have insurance against that. We’ll talk about IT and cybersecurity, another thing you need in your insurance in another podcast. However, you’ve got to be consistent with this and when it comes time, all I can share with you folks, when you make that decision to terminate, do not change your mind.
Mara: Yes, we are going to take a slight break, a slight intermission because what kind of business would we be if we didn’t

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Now
So Jay, this is the perfect segue, you know, as we start to, I am not a golfer. We start to get to the back nine of the, a, of the podcast. Are you semi proud of me for using a golf analogy?
Jay: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I love it . You always seem to do better on the back nine after I’ve perfected my, my inconsistent strokes.
Mara: And I do better in the garden or curled up with a book or a rescue pup.
Jay: I have been clear, concise, and consistently poor on the front nine.
Mara: So as we’re on the back nine of this particular episode of the podcast, let’s talk about when the firing and the slash letting go exit conversation is actually taking place. So. What should be done that day, who should be

present during the conversation, the termination conversation? What do we tell the team afterwards?
So let’s start with when you were getting ready that, that day, what needs to happen right before you call that person or , including when you call that person into the office.
Jay: Well, I would have everything in writing and I mean, everything. What are the reasons for the termination? If you’ve had this, come to employee meeting prior to this, when it comes time for the terminable interview, exit interview, if you want to call it that or conduct it, have all your ducks in a row. Don’t hem and haw and thump, figure out what you’re going to say. Now, I made a comment about once you to make that decision to terminate, don’t change your mind. I’m going to retract that for a second only in one way. If you find in that interim, that the reason you want to terminate them, the reason changed, for example, that it

wasn’t them on the theft, it wasn’t them or something else that was a commitment of a safety violation, but maybe it could have been avoided. Then I might change my mind, but I have very rarely when it comes to any of the other reasons of via continued violations of company infractions, do I ever change my mind? So how did it in writing and have a witness.
Now look, if you are a male physician and you’re going to terminate a female, you must no differently than you would in an exam room, have another female present.
Mara: Now, Jay, when you say witness, who is the best team member who was, or who was the best person to be that witness?
Jay: Your practice administrator, usually a person of your management team. Somebody might say that they are biased to you, however you don’t want to put an equal team mate in that room, it’s going to make them very uncomfortable first of all,

and I don’t know that I would want to be a witness to a colleague being terminated. I don’t like being in that situation as a boss, manager, supervisor, or business owner. I’ve never felt comfortable about terminating somebody unless they have committed such an egregious infraction that I actually feel good about terminating. You know, Clients use us to be their external HR people to terminate staff members, but it’s not like we come in cold and blind. The staff members have already had a meeting with us in trying to make it right before the termination takes place. And by that time, I have to tell you we’re working on the best behalf and the interest of the client. And it’s something that has to be done in order for the client to remain profitable and, you know, to keep our consistency in place.
Mara: Jay can you give us two or three lines or what

that opening line should be outside of, “can you please come in and have a seat”, but the basically give us a script of, unfortunately dot, dot, dot, dot , dot, so can you give us just a couple, two or three lines of, of how for people that may feel uncomfortable with having that conversation?
Jay: Nothing is ever comfortable in this conversation. I will tell you, it’s never a hundred percent comfortable. It’s a whole lot different than the comfort level when I call you in to give you a raise and it is for me to terminate your employment, that’s never comfortable. However, you know, we, we call them in, you have a seat and you get right to the point. No chitter chatter about it. Unfortunately, it has come time for us to have a separation of your employment. I’m sorry. It has come to this. You’ve already said this in

your previous counseling sessions get right to the point. All right. And if it’s just a matter of, I’m just done with it, I always believe in offering that staff member health insurance til the end of the month, if you provide it. I never cut off their benefits. I will give outside of theft and some of my zero tolerance policies. If I’m just done with you and it’s time for us to separate employment. Cause it’s just not going to work going further. I will give you the courtesy of two weeks or to the end of the next pay period, because I wouldn’t have expected anything different for you to give me that notice.
Mara: Now you mean at that 0.2 weeks pay not keeping them on the team for two weeks.
Jay: I never keep somebody. Unless you’re relocating for your spouse, your domestic partner,

whatever, to a different non competitive area, or you’re leaving the industry. I never keep you. Now understand, I allow you to know that you’re going to be terminated, you’re going to get, I call it steel. Whatever information: clients, patients, you’re going to get whatever it is you want before you leave. So when it comes time for me to make that decision, I will pay you for those couple of weeks and I’ll bite the bullet and be without one less staff member. All right? Versus me keeping you and you creating havoc in those next two weeks. And I don’t know what you’ll do in those final two weeks. So I have to let you go.
Mara: The other component is that upon termination, if at all possible while that conversation is going on, have somebody else change passwords that are shared passwords and change those particular passwords, inclusive

of EMR, social media, your phone system. If they have, if you have an electronic lock, if they have access to your security cameras change those passwords .Change, you know, if we need to change a username and password, ask your vendors to do so, if it’s something that you would prefer a vendor, do I. E. EMR, you know, for those types of things, often vendors are used to this.
If it’s not something you’re able to have somebody internally handle a lot of times, I see that, especially with small practices.
Jay: Actually, Mara, this is not done during. This is done the day before. So if somebody tries to log in the night before they’re being terminated, they’re locked out. Unfortunately.
Mara: This is an interesting question Jay. When do you let that team member know that they are having the meeting and the age old question? What is the best day of the week, time of the day to have that conversation?

Jay: I’m at a day. Well, it depends if it’s a zero infraction, there is no day of the week, time of the day. It’s now.
Mara: Immediately.
Jay: Right. If it is a plan termination, I always believe Friday. All right. I’m going to pay you for the balance of the pay period or two weeks. So it doesn’t matter Monday, Friday, you know, do I want to ruin your weekend? No, but I also don’t want you ruining our workweek. All right. And creating havoc and drama, because if you want to come back the next day we’re closed.
And you know, I always believe in telling them what I’m going to give them. You know, it’s the kissing kick method, only this way. It’s the kick and then kiss. All right, because I’m going to terminate you, but I’m going to share with you what I’m offering you, what I’m giving you. All right now, there are certain plans.
I may not be able to vest up your IRA or 4 0 1. If that’s not part of my plan. I can’t vest you up

for another year. If you’ve got to be there two years. All right? Afterwards.
Mara: What about PTO?
Jay: Okay. That brings up a very interesting point. PTO, certain days, certain states, California, for example.
Mara: I will say, for the acronym, we love acronyms. PTO. For those of you that don’t know stands for paid time off. So that includes vacation, sick, some companies and some practices depending on state. And you just separate it out to vacation, pay and sick leave. if that’s not required by state law, then we always recommend just giving them paid time off, which is a whole other concept and reason. But when we talk about. Paying out for PTO, that’s paying out for, for earned, paid time off. So gadget, I just wanted to clarify my own.
Jay: Whether it’s earned or accrued, there’s a difference because sometimes you may offer somebody a week, two weeks in their first year and they haven’t earned it yet. All

right.
But you’ve given it to them. So you may take a week or two weeks within your first. I personally never, I don’t agree to that, that this is just made, I believe in accrued earn PTO, whether it’s sick days, vacation days, personal days. So if you want to offer somebody a week in the first year, Then it would be one hour that you’re going to accrue for every 52 hours that you work.
If you want to offer them 80 hours or two weeks, this was for full-time. Then you accrue one hour for every 26 hours that you work. Call me if you want to know. And the formulas, because certain payroll systems will create that algebraic or decimal point formula for you, however, you have to

accrue it. So it’s not like, well, I was there six months and you told me I’m going to get two weeks. It’s like, I don’t agree with that, but you can take what you’ve accrued. I’ve always said to an employee from the very beginning, whatever, sick time, whatever PTO, vacation, whatever you have accrued, please don’t take it, and then quite. And the same thing about terminating your employment. The date that you resigned voluntarily or involuntarily, whatever PTO you still have remaining will be paid to you. I can’t share with you. I can’t tell you how many offer letters and handbooks we write for clients and they tell us no, when they are separated or they’re terminated, they don’t get to keep their PTO. All I can say to folks is if you do that, Then the way to skin that cat as an employee is they’re going to take their PTO and not come back.

Otherwise get the benefit of that employee and then pay it out. I’ve always believed. I don’t like carry-over because if I’m offering you one week or two weeks, I don’t want to give you three weeks the following year because you didn’t use your PTO for whatever reason that is. So in my former practice, what I did at the end of the year, if you had 40 hours, I don’t want you carrying it over to the next year, because then you may take three weeks and I can’t afford to have you off that long.
I buy out your PTO in cash and you start the new year and zero. He didn’t look, he didn’t lose anything. I’ve just bought it out from you.
Mara: Right. Which, which makes sense. I mean, there’s most, like you said, there’s multiple ways to do that. But it does prevent somebody taking their PTO and then coming back and quitting so that, because there’s no need for

it.
So with that, we have , Jay, we have covered everything on our checklist because we are nothing without a good checklist over here at Shorr Solutions. If you’ve ever worked with us or met us, you know, we’re a big fan. of checklists so we have covered all of the topics today based on, on what we had. Thank you so much for Jay for taking time out of your schedule and for having a nice Powell, a nice chat today about one of our-
Jay: When the employee and my boss told me I had to be here. Mara is my boss.
Mara: I put it on his schedule. Yes. So. Thank you. You know, and thank you, Jay, but also thank you to our listeners, our viewers, for coming to another episode of Shorr Solutions: The Podcast, we hope that you enjoyed another episode with what we like to believe is your all time

favorite father, daughter, team of consultants in the industry.
Award-winning as we may be, but family first. So have a wonderful rest of your day. And again, thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Shorr Solutions: The Podcast.
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